I asked my friends for some characters and they said the Doctor from Dr.Who and Superman/Clark Kent.
Personally I thought of Lord Henry Wotton from Dorian Grey, more so as someone impossible to argue with. He himself doesn't live by the rules that he "poisons" Dorian with, and you're left wondering if he actually agrees with them. Here's some of his "rules" or maybe more like advice--
"Conscience is just a polite word for cowardice. No civilized man regrets a pleasure."
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. Resist it, and your soul grows sick with longing for the things it has forbidden to itself..."
"Every impulse that we strive to strangle broods in the mind, and poisons us. The body sins once, and has done with its sin, for action is a mode of purification. Nothing remains then but the recollection of a pleasure, or the luxury of a regret."
"I represent to you all the sins you have never had the courage to commit."
"The things one feels absolutely certain about are never true."
"It is only the sacred things that are worth touching... When one is in love, one always begins by deceiving one's self, and one always ends by deceiving others. That is what the world calls a romance."
He's just so good at convincing you to be a hedonist! And flipping logic on its head. He is so difficult to argue with, but you know that something is wrong with the things that he says. If you fully devote yourself to hedonism, you really dont have to care about anything, like how he wants Dorian to become. But you as the reader know that it's not ethical and you should feel guilt following him...
I'm constantly fascinated by how people, including me, after being introduced d to the lives of villains, often admire and root for them. But let's flip the coin to its other side—heroes, such as Atticus Finch, To Kill a Mockingbird. Finch has a personal code rooted in justice, integrity, and empathy, although it's not as clearly defined as Omar's. Finch has moral courage. He took on Tom Robinson's defense, knowing it would estrange him from the community. Finch taught by example. He demonstrated his values to his children and those values became instilled in them. Finch committed himself to Truth. He spoke and stood up for truth, Without it, there can be no justice.
Are more people fascinated by Omar's life and code than Finch's? Probably. Why? Good question.
Theres a great book called Why We Love Sociopaths that explores that very question. Here's my review of it: https://scottberkun.com/2013/why-we-love-sociopaths-book-review/. In short - part of us admires people who get away with things? That's one theory, but the book gives others.
I'm embarrassed to admit I've never read To Kill a Mockingbird. I haven't seen the movie either. I hope you don't unsubscribe from this substack for this :)
So fascinating. The one that came to mind instantly was the polar opposite rules that Pacino and De Niro's live by in Heat.. Two sides of the same coin.
This is fascinating and I will think on it for a while, so expect random comments...
What about 'The Good Place'. While it isn't necessarily someone having rules they live by, the progression of the seasons has characters gradually learning to live in a different way and gradually becoming 'better' people and helping others to live more moral lives.
There's probably also something interesting in Doctor Who. The Doctor never has a weapon other than his trusty sonic screwdriver (which isn't a weapon, but part of the show shenanigans is often seeing how he can use a simple tool to achieve an actual desstructive end). Instead of using weapons he turns the enemy's weapons against them and uses his ability to plan, think, and act better.
You know, I've never watched The Good Place! I've seen episodes and love the whole idea of the show, I'm just not a big sitcom watcher. This is good homework for me: I'll give it another shot.
Doctor Who is also an interesting model for rules: if I remember he is basically godlike in power but has decided to be helpful to people? That's a bit like Prometheus.
Thanks for these thoughts Donna. Please keep them coming.
Thanks. I know of the show but I've never watched it. There's just something about our obession with serial killers (they're so rare in real life but everywhere in our fiction!) that leads me to avoid shows and movies about them. But now that you explain it I can definitely see the link to Omar.
Another related show this conversation makes me think about is The Sopranos. I think Tony Soprano's code is so malliable - there's a lot of lying on that show - that trying to make a list of his actual rules would be interesting.
I was going to say Dexter too. It's a cognitively dissonant experience to watch that show, and watch him cut up humans, but only humans who he has decided fit his code and deserve to be killed. Like, who is he to decide that?
There's probably something similar early on in Breaking Bad, where Walter makes decisions around supporting his family. It's flimsy though.
I'll think some more on it - I reckon there are a bunch in novels...
Oooh. Breaking bad. Yes! It's definitely another in the list of complex anti-hero characters who are still somehow charismatic? It was fascinating to me how many people didn't like Skylar (his wife) - completely missing how inverted the morality on that show was.
I think for Breaking Bad his rules slowly changed? That reminds me of another thought for the book: maybe we need different rules for different ages? Or different phases of life?
Yeah, the rules definitely changed. I think there was a comment in the link that I posted that said that later in the season Walter said something like "I just like doing it". It started with desperation but morphed with power...
I asked my friends for some characters and they said the Doctor from Dr.Who and Superman/Clark Kent.
Personally I thought of Lord Henry Wotton from Dorian Grey, more so as someone impossible to argue with. He himself doesn't live by the rules that he "poisons" Dorian with, and you're left wondering if he actually agrees with them. Here's some of his "rules" or maybe more like advice--
"Conscience is just a polite word for cowardice. No civilized man regrets a pleasure."
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. Resist it, and your soul grows sick with longing for the things it has forbidden to itself..."
"Every impulse that we strive to strangle broods in the mind, and poisons us. The body sins once, and has done with its sin, for action is a mode of purification. Nothing remains then but the recollection of a pleasure, or the luxury of a regret."
"I represent to you all the sins you have never had the courage to commit."
"The things one feels absolutely certain about are never true."
"It is only the sacred things that are worth touching... When one is in love, one always begins by deceiving one's self, and one always ends by deceiving others. That is what the world calls a romance."
He's just so good at convincing you to be a hedonist! And flipping logic on its head. He is so difficult to argue with, but you know that something is wrong with the things that he says. If you fully devote yourself to hedonism, you really dont have to care about anything, like how he wants Dorian to become. But you as the reader know that it's not ethical and you should feel guilt following him...
I'm constantly fascinated by how people, including me, after being introduced d to the lives of villains, often admire and root for them. But let's flip the coin to its other side—heroes, such as Atticus Finch, To Kill a Mockingbird. Finch has a personal code rooted in justice, integrity, and empathy, although it's not as clearly defined as Omar's. Finch has moral courage. He took on Tom Robinson's defense, knowing it would estrange him from the community. Finch taught by example. He demonstrated his values to his children and those values became instilled in them. Finch committed himself to Truth. He spoke and stood up for truth, Without it, there can be no justice.
Are more people fascinated by Omar's life and code than Finch's? Probably. Why? Good question.
Theres a great book called Why We Love Sociopaths that explores that very question. Here's my review of it: https://scottberkun.com/2013/why-we-love-sociopaths-book-review/. In short - part of us admires people who get away with things? That's one theory, but the book gives others.
I'm embarrassed to admit I've never read To Kill a Mockingbird. I haven't seen the movie either. I hope you don't unsubscribe from this substack for this :)
Both the book and movie are outstanding. Now is a good time to check them out.
I agree!
I read your excellent book review of Why We Love Sociopaths. Sounds like fascinating reading. I'll check it out.
So fascinating. The one that came to mind instantly was the polar opposite rules that Pacino and De Niro's live by in Heat.. Two sides of the same coin.
Oh yes - there's that famous scene when they are on camera for the first time, and in a way are sharing their rules. Thanks for the reminder.
This is fascinating and I will think on it for a while, so expect random comments...
What about 'The Good Place'. While it isn't necessarily someone having rules they live by, the progression of the seasons has characters gradually learning to live in a different way and gradually becoming 'better' people and helping others to live more moral lives.
There's probably also something interesting in Doctor Who. The Doctor never has a weapon other than his trusty sonic screwdriver (which isn't a weapon, but part of the show shenanigans is often seeing how he can use a simple tool to achieve an actual desstructive end). Instead of using weapons he turns the enemy's weapons against them and uses his ability to plan, think, and act better.
You know, I've never watched The Good Place! I've seen episodes and love the whole idea of the show, I'm just not a big sitcom watcher. This is good homework for me: I'll give it another shot.
Doctor Who is also an interesting model for rules: if I remember he is basically godlike in power but has decided to be helpful to people? That's a bit like Prometheus.
Thanks for these thoughts Donna. Please keep them coming.
This is interesting - there are a whole lot that I don't know because I haven't watched them, but the ones I know make sense: https://screenrant.com/tv-villains-who-were-right/
Oooh - I just thought of another one. The main character from Memento.
Thanks. I know of the show but I've never watched it. There's just something about our obession with serial killers (they're so rare in real life but everywhere in our fiction!) that leads me to avoid shows and movies about them. But now that you explain it I can definitely see the link to Omar.
Another related show this conversation makes me think about is The Sopranos. I think Tony Soprano's code is so malliable - there's a lot of lying on that show - that trying to make a list of his actual rules would be interesting.
I was going to say Dexter too. It's a cognitively dissonant experience to watch that show, and watch him cut up humans, but only humans who he has decided fit his code and deserve to be killed. Like, who is he to decide that?
There's probably something similar early on in Breaking Bad, where Walter makes decisions around supporting his family. It's flimsy though.
I'll think some more on it - I reckon there are a bunch in novels...
Oooh. Breaking bad. Yes! It's definitely another in the list of complex anti-hero characters who are still somehow charismatic? It was fascinating to me how many people didn't like Skylar (his wife) - completely missing how inverted the morality on that show was.
I think for Breaking Bad his rules slowly changed? That reminds me of another thought for the book: maybe we need different rules for different ages? Or different phases of life?
Thanks for this.
Yeah, the rules definitely changed. I think there was a comment in the link that I posted that said that later in the season Walter said something like "I just like doing it". It started with desperation but morphed with power...